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Willy Eyenine
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 Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Incoming................ |
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"musicaner" <musicaner@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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On Oct 21, 7:23 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2275c2c-c19a-4d87-9a8b-e0741c704a03@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 21, 10:31 am, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e01b2780-0b14-4fb3-afcc-f1cfb1f85c11@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 20, 9:54 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e35474f8-f771-425f-a6a9-744a989a0847@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 20, 10:23 am, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:12e8818a-a2a5-49f0-97ce-8307eca0ba63@l77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 20, 7:52 am, "Burton Busk" <burton...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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"Burton Busk" <burton...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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"Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote in message
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"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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On Oct 16, 9:44 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net
wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ae0579d2-9cf1-4097-9a7c-5b97d488a20b@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
There's a part in that chapter that I've read a few dozen
times...and
still
can't make heads or tails of it.
Dylan writes about how he used to play/sing using even
numbers...but
then
when he switched to odd numbers, it
all fell into place. I've looked at it from every possible
angle
and
can't
make a bit of sense out of what he's talking about.
" the guitar thing he must have meant that guitar style he
adopted
sometime in the NEVER ENDING TOUR where he would play those
triplets
over and over again., and he sorta adopted an anti backbeat
type
of
vibe around that time, thats what he means i suppose."
Yeah, I haven't read the book, but it sounds like maybe he is
talking
about odd time signatures. And maybe he picked that up from
playing
with the Dead --- I doubt if they played "The Eleven" when
they
toured
with Bob, but they sure as heck played "The Other One"
plenty,
and
that's filled with triplets.
Okay, all of you all will probably think I'm a knuckehead for
asking
this, since I've
been playing guitar for over 30 years...but what exactly are
triplets??
The only time I heard the term used was once...a long time
ago...to
describe the
rhythm guitar playing on "All My Loving"...but that seems to
be
coming
at a staccato-type
pace. With Dylan, how would triplets work on a much slower
song??
And how is it different from the way most folks play guitar?
And will I be unable to play them since my right-hand isn't
all
that
coordinated?
Triplets are basically having 3 notes occupying the space
normally
occupied by 2. I think.
As I understand it, for example, where there would normally be
2
quarter
notes played in the same duration as a half note, if you played
triplets
there would be 3 quarter notes played in the same length of
time
as
a
half note, instead. In other words, it's increasing the note
value
by
50%, while using the same time duration.
Quadruplets, quintuplets, on and on, same concept.
Thanks...that makes sense. I'm still trying to piece together
how
this
affected Dylan's
performing style besides his guitar playing. If it influenced
the
way
he
atacked songs vocally, then the only thing I can think of is
that
he
might
have begun to rush some his phrasing when singing by doing this.
If
that
is the way it worked, then I'm not so sure that was such a good
thing.
In the early stages of the "Never Ending Tour" it wasn't all
that
distracting, but these days...when his singing is more of a
rushed
croak....it's not
all that pleasing to the ear.
I can't help with the Dylan stuff; I'm just not familiar enough
with
the
material.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"i knew YOKOS wouldnt go for the G droppin. BIG BIG PASS on em.
the BOB show has been unlistenable for many years now, he seems to
have no interest in even followin the flow of the song. its LIKE HES
readin a huge LONG SENTENCE without pause. but FOLK go wild at the
shows so more power to em."
-------------------------------------------------------
I got lucky and saw a really good show from him in 2001.
The ones I saw after that, one just after MODERN TIMES, left me
saying
that I'd pretty much had my fill of his live shows.
I'm flabbergasted when I read the reviews of his shows from this
some,
where folks write how he's back in fine voice. I've heard bits from
those
shows and its a talking growl, nothing more. It sure isn't singing.
Even during the final shows where he did sing, he did an annoying
form
of upsinging, where the end of every line sounded as though a
question
mark
belonged on the end of it.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"when he took up the KEYBOARD the singing went down hill, not only he
dont even seem to attemt to follow the song, it seems hes readin the
newspapter onstage, not that the singing throughout the NEVER ENDING
TOUR hasnt been iffy at best."
==========================================
I had to drive a ways to and fro today, so I must have listened to
"Red
River Shore" about ten times in a row.
Heartbreaking song......don't know if he's talking about lost love,
lost
faith, lost dreams (or a bit of all that and more).
I'm guessing that it must have come to a toss-up as to what song would
close
out TIME OUT OF MIND
("Highlands" or "Red River Shore").... And even though both songs are
different in approach ("Highlands" has some lighter
and more comical moments), but seem to offer a bleak outlook on what
waits
us when we reach the end of the road.
So, since there were already songs such as "Not Dark Yet" and "Trying
to
Get
to Heaven" (along with another half dozen
bleak songs), I don't think there's anyway that album could have
sustained
two epics that pretty much had such a dour outlook.
He probably made the wiser choice ending the album with
"Highlands"....if
he'd ended it with "Red River Shore," that might have
just been too much sorrow to heap onto one album. "Highlands" already
feels
enough like a punch in the gut with talk of
"I got new eyes...Everything looks far away." But ending that album
with
"Red River Shore"...man, that would have been
an even more poignant closer than "Sugar Baby."
Don't mean to ramble on about this song....but I like writing about
Dylan
a
lot more here than I do over on the Dylan ng.
I do love that song, though. That last verse about Jesus always
manages
to
send a chill down the spine (now that I think of it,
just about every verse of that song has that effect). I remember when
I
was a young man wishing that I could write songs
as powerful as Bob's. After hearing a song such as "Red River Shore,"
I
pray that I'm never able to write a song such as that.
Despite all the praying, though, I find that it's those world-weary
songs
from the last three albums (along with songs such as "Tell Ol' Bill"
and
"Cross the
Green Mountains" and such) that seem to resonate more in my as I hit
middle
age.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"i think the best thing about RED RIVER SHORE is the phrasin while
singin. its very odd and DIFFICULT to do, its a great song but i dont
see why it would be left offa TOOM , the only thin i cain think of is
that maybe the lyrics werent finished, that last verse is one part
that dont seem finished. the upbeat MARCHIN to the CITY should also
been on there. what is interestin is how many of the outtakes have a
more LANOIS type of sound, while the finished thing didnt. that seemed
to be an anti LANOIS album."
===========================================
I've noticed that also on the TELL TALE SIGN tracks...Lanois's sound
doesn't
dominate those tracks that he's said to have produced. I've heard more
than
a few speculate
what you mention, that this was almost Dylan's way of letting Lanois
know
just how much
(or how little) he was actually needed. If memory serves, back when news
first came out
about TIME OUT OF MIND, I remember hearing that "Red River Shore" was
called
"Girl from the Red River Shore" and it was supposed to be something like
a
20 minute opus.
I'm guessing, though, that folks were probably confusing it with
"Highands"
(which is long, but
nowhere close to 20 mintues).- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"nobody knew the title to the songs back in the day, they knew there
was ONE LONG SONG , but i dont think they got titles unitl later on.
as far as the LANOIS thing the first thing BOB did was get rid of his
drum sound. i dont know which one of the LANOIS assistants was the one
with the ENGLISH ACCENT but they are all aggravatin, with theories and
the such. BOB on of the greats dont need THEORIES from some
whipernsapper. it came a point early on where BOB said no go and
called in his people, he didnt want OH MERCY pt 2.
it wasnt a very happy go lucky session."
===============================================
Would that be the album that wound up being UNDER THE RED SKY? I'm getting
mixed up...because
I could have sworn that in CHRONICLES that Lanois made some sort of
disparaging remark about Don Was
during the OH MERCY sessions. Then again, with all the disparaging remarks
getting made about different
people, it's easy to lose track....
I see that there a couple of songs from that album..."G-d Knows" and "Born
in Time" that were produced
by Lanois. Dylan must have gotten some pressure to rejoin with Lanois for
TIME OUT OF MIND.
It doesn't sound as though things were all that much better, since I've
heard that they bickered
over songs such as "Not Dark Yet." Can't say that everything that Lanois
touches winds up being a golden egg.
The full-band version of "Dignity" on TELL TALE SIGNS pretty much sheds a
light on Dylan's telling of how
the life got sucked out of that song when making OH MERCY (although I've
heard some fine outtakes from those
sessions of this song...this version isn't one of the better ones). And,
really, except for the sparse version of "Mississippi"
that begins the new collection, I can't say that I favor any of the
outtakes
over the LOVE AND THEFT version.
I have to wonder how he'd have fared with Brian Eno...and Eno's
instructional cards for studio sessions ("Play As Though
You're In a Cocktail Lounge" - "Everyone Switch to the Instrument that You
Know Nothing About" and such).
|
"i beleive it was WAS who dissed LANOIS around the time TOOM came out.
WAS let BOB have his way and
LANOIS thought he was doin a BOB/LANOIS DUET album which probably
rubbed BOB the wrong way. UNDER THE RED SKY which is one of my
favorite BOB records sold no copies so im sure BOB got the push after
the acoustic records that also sold nothin to get back to LANOIS!! but
the concept of OH MERCY 2 was a no go for BOB. and he called in all
these players despite the fact that LANIOS was producin. LANOIS would
never have made a record that sounds like LOVE and THEFT or MODERN
TIMES, if thats good or not i dont know. those records have a DEAN
MARTIN vibe that i dont know LANOIS could live with."
=============================================
When you say a Dean Martin vibe are you talking about those crooner-type
songs such as
"Moonlight" - "Bye and Bye" - "Floater" -"Spirit on the Water" - "Beyond the
Horizon" and such?
Though that style of songs on MODERN TIMES has some fine lines and lyrics in
them, I found
that the style began to wear a bit thin by the time that album came out. On
LOVE AND THEFT,
I thought it was something of a move of genius to have a few songs of that
style on the album.
By the time those same songs appeared on MODERN TIMES, it felt a bit more
like a formula.
Still, I've no beef with either of the albums that Dylan's produced. If
you take the best from TIME OUT
OF MIND, you'd wind up with an album in line with his best (wiping away a
lot of those blues-based
songs that begin to sound the same no matter how many times I play it).
The last two L&T and MT,
they're able to hold my interest in one sitting. I start to get restless
while playing the TOOM album.
What's interesting is how Dylan refers to the music that he and Lanois were
making as "archaic" (or some
word to that effect)...saying that it was the rappers who really were the
ones that folk to whom folks should
be paying attention...yet a good part of his resurgence is built around
those old-timey sounding songs.
I do have a soft spot for those songs on LOVE AND THEFT, though....fits
nicely with the wide range of
styles on that album. There's plenty I love on MODERN TIMES...when it's at
its best, it glistens.
I still don't see the "trilogy" in those albums from TOOM to MODERN TIMES
that so many have written about.
Those last two albums are in a league of their own. And, no, I don't think
that Lanois would have
been that wild about good chunks of the material on both of those albums,
although I've to confess that
I'd like to hear how his production would have sounded on a song such as
"Ain't Talkin'"... |
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musicaner
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Incoming................ |
|
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On Oct 21, 11:58 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:753b49ae-4e97-4908-adde-58783ac64cf5@t65g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 21, 7:23 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2275c2c-c19a-4d87-9a8b-e0741c704a03@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 21, 10:31 am, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e01b2780-0b14-4fb3-afcc-f1cfb1f85c11@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com....
On Oct 20, 9:54 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e35474f8-f771-425f-a6a9-744a989a0847@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 20, 10:23 am, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:12e8818a-a2a5-49f0-97ce-8307eca0ba63@l77g2000hse.googlegroups..com...
On Oct 20, 7:52 am, "Burton Busk" <burton...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:342dnY_b74O9pmfVnZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@comcast.com...
"Burton Busk" <burton...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ad-dnWX8GvNuRGTVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@comcast.com...
"Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:UqSdncMI2snetWTVnZ2dnUVZ_rrinZ2d@comcast.com...
"Burton Busk" <burton...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:VOCdnfeEHvmXDWXVnZ2dnUVZ_rTinZ2d@comcast.com...
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:051e89cb-8d76-42db-af93-3c426c750940@p49g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 16, 9:44 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net
wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ae0579d2-9cf1-4097-9a7c-5b97d488a20b@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
There's a part in that chapter that I've read a few dozen
times...and
still
can't make heads or tails of it.
Dylan writes about how he used to play/sing using even
numbers...but
then
when he switched to odd numbers, it
all fell into place. I've looked at it from every possible
angle
and
can't
make a bit of sense out of what he's talking about.
" the guitar thing he must have meant that guitar style he
adopted
sometime in the NEVER ENDING TOUR where he would play those
triplets
over and over again., and he sorta adopted an anti backbeat
type
of
vibe around that time, thats what he means i suppose."
Yeah, I haven't read the book, but it sounds like maybe he is
talking
about odd time signatures. And maybe he picked that up from
playing
with the Dead --- I doubt if they played "The Eleven" when
they
toured
with Bob, but they sure as heck played "The Other One"
plenty,
and
that's filled with triplets.
Okay, all of you all will probably think I'm a knuckehead for
asking
this, since I've
been playing guitar for over 30 years...but what exactly are
triplets??
The only time I heard the term used was once...a long time
ago...to
describe the
rhythm guitar playing on "All My Loving"...but that seems to
be
coming
at a staccato-type
pace. With Dylan, how would triplets work on a much slower
song??
And how is it different from the way most folks play guitar?
And will I be unable to play them since my right-hand isn't
all
that
coordinated?
Triplets are basically having 3 notes occupying the space
normally
occupied by 2. I think.
As I understand it, for example, where there would normally be
2
quarter
notes played in the same duration as a half note, if you played
triplets
there would be 3 quarter notes played in the same length of
time
as
a
half note, instead. In other words, it's increasing the note
value
by
50%, while using the same time duration.
Quadruplets, quintuplets, on and on, same concept.
Thanks...that makes sense. I'm still trying to piece together
how
this
affected Dylan's
performing style besides his guitar playing. If it influenced
the
way
he
atacked songs vocally, then the only thing I can think of is
that
he
might
have begun to rush some his phrasing when singing by doing this.
If
that
is the way it worked, then I'm not so sure that was such a good
thing.
In the early stages of the "Never Ending Tour" it wasn't all
that
distracting, but these days...when his singing is more of a
rushed
croak....it's not
all that pleasing to the ear.
I can't help with the Dylan stuff; I'm just not familiar enough
with
the
material.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"i knew YOKOS wouldnt go for the G droppin. BIG BIG PASS on em.
the BOB show has been unlistenable for many years now, he seems to
have no interest in even followin the flow of the song. its LIKE HES
readin a huge LONG SENTENCE without pause. but FOLK go wild at the
shows so more power to em."
-------------------------------------------------------
I got lucky and saw a really good show from him in 2001.
The ones I saw after that, one just after MODERN TIMES, left me
saying
that I'd pretty much had my fill of his live shows.
I'm flabbergasted when I read the reviews of his shows from this
some,
where folks write how he's back in fine voice. I've heard bits from
those
shows and its a talking growl, nothing more. It sure isn't singing.
Even during the final shows where he did sing, he did an annoying
form
of upsinging, where the end of every line sounded as though a
question
mark
belonged on the end of it.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"when he took up the KEYBOARD the singing went down hill, not only he
dont even seem to attemt to follow the song, it seems hes readin the
newspapter onstage, not that the singing throughout the NEVER ENDING
TOUR hasnt been iffy at best."
=========================================
I had to drive a ways to and fro today, so I must have listened to
"Red
River Shore" about ten times in a row.
Heartbreaking song......don't know if he's talking about lost love,
lost
faith, lost dreams (or a bit of all that and more).
I'm guessing that it must have come to a toss-up as to what song would
close
out TIME OUT OF MIND
("Highlands" or "Red River Shore").... And even though both songs are
different in approach ("Highlands" has some lighter
and more comical moments), but seem to offer a bleak outlook on what
waits
us when we reach the end of the road.
So, since there were already songs such as "Not Dark Yet" and "Trying
to
Get
to Heaven" (along with another half dozen
bleak songs), I don't think there's anyway that album could have
sustained
two epics that pretty much had such a dour outlook.
He probably made the wiser choice ending the album with
"Highlands"....if
he'd ended it with "Red River Shore," that might have
just been too much sorrow to heap onto one album. "Highlands" already
feels
enough like a punch in the gut with talk of
"I got new eyes...Everything looks far away." But ending that album
with
"Red River Shore"...man, that would have been
an even more poignant closer than "Sugar Baby."
Don't mean to ramble on about this song....but I like writing about
Dylan
a
lot more here than I do over on the Dylan ng.
I do love that song, though. That last verse about Jesus always
manages
to
send a chill down the spine (now that I think of it,
just about every verse of that song has that effect). I remember when
I
was a young man wishing that I could write songs
as powerful as Bob's. After hearing a song such as "Red River Shore,"
I
pray that I'm never able to write a song such as that.
Despite all the praying, though, I find that it's those world-weary
songs
from the last three albums (along with songs such as "Tell Ol' Bill"
and
"Cross the
Green Mountains" and such) that seem to resonate more in my as I hit
middle
age.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"i think the best thing about RED RIVER SHORE is the phrasin while
singin. its very odd and DIFFICULT to do, its a great song but i dont
see why it would be left offa TOOM , the only thin i cain think of is
that maybe the lyrics werent finished, that last verse is one part
that dont seem finished. the upbeat MARCHIN to the CITY should also
been on there. what is interestin is how many of the outtakes have a
more LANOIS type of sound, while the finished thing didnt. that seemed
to be an anti LANOIS album."
==========================================
I've noticed that also on the TELL TALE SIGN tracks...Lanois's sound
doesn't
dominate those tracks that he's said to have produced. I've heard more
than
a few speculate
what you mention, that this was almost Dylan's way of letting Lanois
know
just how much
(or how little) he was actually needed. If memory serves, back when news
first came out
about TIME OUT OF MIND, I remember hearing that "Red River Shore" was
called
"Girl from the Red River Shore" and it was supposed to be something like
a
20 minute opus.
I'm guessing, though, that folks were probably confusing it with
"Highands"
(which is long, but
nowhere close to 20 mintues).- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"nobody knew the title to the songs back in the day, they knew there
was ONE LONG SONG , but i dont think they got titles unitl later on.
as far as the LANOIS thing the first thing BOB did was get rid of his
drum sound. i dont know which one of the LANOIS assistants was the one
with the ENGLISH ACCENT but they are all aggravatin, with theories and
the such. BOB on of the greats dont need THEORIES from some
whipernsapper. it came a point early on where BOB said no go and
called in his people, he didnt want OH MERCY pt 2.
it wasnt a very happy go lucky session."
==============================================
Would that be the album that wound up being UNDER THE RED SKY? I'm getting
mixed up...because
I could have sworn that in CHRONICLES that Lanois made some sort of
disparaging remark about Don Was
during the OH MERCY sessions. Then again, with all the disparaging remarks
getting made about different
people, it's easy to lose track....
I see that there a couple of songs from that album..."G-d Knows" and "Born
in Time" that were produced
by Lanois. Dylan must have gotten some pressure to rejoin with Lanois for
TIME OUT OF MIND.
It doesn't sound as though things were all that much better, since I've
heard that they bickered
over songs such as "Not Dark Yet." Can't say that everything that Lanois
touches winds up being a golden egg.
The full-band version of "Dignity" on TELL TALE SIGNS pretty much sheds a
light on Dylan's telling of how
the life got sucked out of that song when making OH MERCY (although I've
heard some fine outtakes from those
sessions of this song...this version isn't one of the better ones). And,
really, except for the sparse version of "Mississippi"
that begins the new collection, I can't say that I favor any of the
outtakes
over the LOVE AND THEFT version.
I have to wonder how he'd have fared with Brian Eno...and Eno's
instructional cards for studio sessions ("Play As Though
You're In a Cocktail Lounge" - "Everyone Switch to the Instrument that You
Know Nothing About" and such).
"i beleive it was WAS who dissed LANOIS around the time TOOM came out.
WAS let BOB have his way and
LANOIS thought he was doin a BOB/LANOIS DUET album which probably
rubbed BOB the wrong way. UNDER THE RED SKY which is one of my
favorite BOB records sold no copies so im sure BOB got the push after
the acoustic records that also sold nothin to get back to LANOIS!! but
the concept of OH MERCY 2 was a no go for BOB. and he called in all
these players despite the fact that LANIOS was producin. LANOIS would
never have made a record that sounds like LOVE and THEFT or MODERN
TIMES, if thats good or not i dont know. those records have a DEAN
MARTIN vibe that i dont know LANOIS could live with."
============================================
When you say a Dean Martin vibe are you talking about those crooner-type
songs such as
"Moonlight" - "Bye and Bye" - "Floater" -"Spirit on the Water" - "Beyond the
Horizon" and such?
Though that style of songs on MODERN TIMES has some fine lines and lyrics in
them, I found
that the style began to wear a bit thin by the time that album came out. On
LOVE AND THEFT,
I thought it was something of a move of genius to have a few songs of that
style on the album.
By the time those same songs appeared on MODERN TIMES, it felt a bit more
like a formula.
Still, I've no beef with either of the albums that Dylan's produced. If
you take the best from TIME OUT
OF MIND, you'd wind up with an album in line with his best (wiping away a
lot of those blues-based
songs that begin to sound the same no matter how many times I play it).
The last two L&T and MT,
they're able to hold my interest in one sitting. I start to get restless
while playing the TOOM album.
What's interesting is how Dylan refers to the music that he and Lanois were
making as "archaic" (or some
word to that effect)...saying that it was the rappers who really were the
ones that folk to whom folks should
be paying attention...yet a good part of his resurgence is built around
those old-timey sounding songs.
I do have a soft spot for those songs on LOVE AND THEFT, though....fits
nicely with the wide range of
styles on that album. There's plenty I love on MODERN TIMES...when it's at
its best, it glistens.
I still don't see the "trilogy" in those albums from TOOM to MODERN TIMES
that so many have written about.
Those last two albums are in a league of their own. And, no, I don't think
that Lanois would have
been that wild about good chunks of the material on both of those albums,
although I've to confess that
I'd like to hear how his production would have sounded on a song such as
"Ain't Talkin'"...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
|
BOB gonna make records that he likes BASED on the RECORDS he likes and
despite all the BS about rap and beck everythin turns out soundin
nothin remotely like it. thats your typical BOB bs to mess with your
mind. yes BECK and ICE CUBE and the thin sounds like BING CROSBY or
CHARLEY PATTON time and time again. hes in a place he can do whatever
he wants and he gonna make an album that sounds
like the ARTIC MONKEYS just aint gonna happen. i like MODERN TIMES
more now that when it came out, my problem is that hes got some
really borin players with him now. |
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musicaner
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Incoming................ |
|
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| Quote: |
Yeah, I agree...he could stand to shake it up in the studio a bit when it
comes
to those who play on an album. And I think you pretty well nailed why I
like
LOVE AND THEFT better than MODERN TIMES. After a while, MODERN TIMES
starts to have a pedestrian sound to it. I just hope he continues to make
studio albums, because
there's no way I'm going to go see him anymore (and his voice does still
sound decent enough
on the studio releases).
|
yes STUDIO albums on account live its unlistenable. MT is not his best
but its still listenable, the blues numbers have grown on me, the one
that seems a bit fake is WHEN THE DEAL GOES DOWN but the rest i like
just fine. no problem with arrang but he got like 4 guitar players on
it yet it sound like theres none.
maybe SEN CRANKY would get the notion that takin the ADVICE of FOX
NEWS and callin SOCIAL SECURITY "SOCIALISM" is not
the best thing to go with in gettin elected. maybe he should know its
mostly crazy people listen to that FOX news. every CRAZY MFer wanderin
the land seems to land there, they put a suit on him and roll him
onstage. |
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Willy Eyenine
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Incoming................ |
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"musicaner" <musicaner@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:588c9698-02d0-4896-b231-17f1eda05bf6@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 21, 11:58 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:753b49ae-4e97-4908-adde-58783ac64cf5@t65g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 21, 7:23 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2275c2c-c19a-4d87-9a8b-e0741c704a03@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 21, 10:31 am, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e01b2780-0b14-4fb3-afcc-f1cfb1f85c11@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 20, 9:54 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e35474f8-f771-425f-a6a9-744a989a0847@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 20, 10:23 am, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:12e8818a-a2a5-49f0-97ce-8307eca0ba63@l77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 20, 7:52 am, "Burton Busk" <burton...@comcast.net> wrote:
"Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:342dnY_b74O9pmfVnZ2dnUVZ_qfinZ2d@comcast.com...
"Burton Busk" <burton...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ad-dnWX8GvNuRGTVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@comcast.com...
"Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:UqSdncMI2snetWTVnZ2dnUVZ_rrinZ2d@comcast.com...
"Burton Busk" <burton...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:VOCdnfeEHvmXDWXVnZ2dnUVZ_rTinZ2d@comcast.com...
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:051e89cb-8d76-42db-af93-3c426c750940@p49g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 16, 9:44 pm, "Willy Eyenine" <billye...@comcast.net
wrote:
"musicaner" <musica...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ae0579d2-9cf1-4097-9a7c-5b97d488a20b@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
There's a part in that chapter that I've read a few dozen
times...and
still
can't make heads or tails of it.
Dylan writes about how he used to play/sing using even
numbers...but
then
when he switched to odd numbers, it
all fell into place. I've looked at it from every possible
angle
and
can't
make a bit of sense out of what he's talking about.
" the guitar thing he must have meant that guitar style he
adopted
sometime in the NEVER ENDING TOUR where he would play those
triplets
over and over again., and he sorta adopted an anti backbeat
type
of
vibe around that time, thats what he means i suppose."
Yeah, I haven't read the book, but it sounds like maybe he
is
talking
about odd time signatures. And maybe he picked that up from
playing
with the Dead --- I doubt if they played "The Eleven" when
they
toured
with Bob, but they sure as heck played "The Other One"
plenty,
and
that's filled with triplets.
Okay, all of you all will probably think I'm a knuckehead
for
asking
this, since I've
been playing guitar for over 30 years...but what exactly are
triplets??
The only time I heard the term used was once...a long time
ago...to
describe the
rhythm guitar playing on "All My Loving"...but that seems to
be
coming
at a staccato-type
pace. With Dylan, how would triplets work on a much slower
song??
And how is it different from the way most folks play guitar?
And will I be unable to play them since my right-hand isn't
all
that
coordinated?
Triplets are basically having 3 notes occupying the space
normally
occupied by 2. I think.
As I understand it, for example, where there would normally
be
2
quarter
notes played in the same duration as a half note, if you
played
triplets
there would be 3 quarter notes played in the same length of
time
as
a
half note, instead. In other words, it's increasing the note
value
by
50%, while using the same time duration.
Quadruplets, quintuplets, on and on, same concept.
Thanks...that makes sense. I'm still trying to piece together
how
this
affected Dylan's
performing style besides his guitar playing. If it influenced
the
way
he
atacked songs vocally, then the only thing I can think of is
that
he
might
have begun to rush some his phrasing when singing by doing
this.
If
that
is the way it worked, then I'm not so sure that was such a
good
thing.
In the early stages of the "Never Ending Tour" it wasn't all
that
distracting, but these days...when his singing is more of a
rushed
croak....it's not
all that pleasing to the ear.
I can't help with the Dylan stuff; I'm just not familiar enough
with
the
material.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"i knew YOKOS wouldnt go for the G droppin. BIG BIG PASS on em.
the BOB show has been unlistenable for many years now, he seems to
have no interest in even followin the flow of the song. its LIKE
HES
readin a huge LONG SENTENCE without pause. but FOLK go wild at the
shows so more power to em."
-------------------------------------------------------
I got lucky and saw a really good show from him in 2001.
The ones I saw after that, one just after MODERN TIMES, left me
saying
that I'd pretty much had my fill of his live shows.
I'm flabbergasted when I read the reviews of his shows from this
some,
where folks write how he's back in fine voice. I've heard bits
from
those
shows and its a talking growl, nothing more. It sure isn't
singing.
Even during the final shows where he did sing, he did an annoying
form
of upsinging, where the end of every line sounded as though a
question
mark
belonged on the end of it.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"when he took up the KEYBOARD the singing went down hill, not only
he
dont even seem to attemt to follow the song, it seems hes readin the
newspapter onstage, not that the singing throughout the NEVER ENDING
TOUR hasnt been iffy at best."
==========================================
I had to drive a ways to and fro today, so I must have listened to
"Red
River Shore" about ten times in a row.
Heartbreaking song......don't know if he's talking about lost love,
lost
faith, lost dreams (or a bit of all that and more).
I'm guessing that it must have come to a toss-up as to what song
would
close
out TIME OUT OF MIND
("Highlands" or "Red River Shore").... And even though both songs
are
different in approach ("Highlands" has some lighter
and more comical moments), but seem to offer a bleak outlook on what
waits
us when we reach the end of the road.
So, since there were already songs such as "Not Dark Yet" and
"Trying
to
Get
to Heaven" (along with another half dozen
bleak songs), I don't think there's anyway that album could have
sustained
two epics that pretty much had such a dour outlook.
He probably made the wiser choice ending the album with
"Highlands"....if
he'd ended it with "Red River Shore," that might have
just been too much sorrow to heap onto one album. "Highlands"
already
feels
enough like a punch in the gut with talk of
"I got new eyes...Everything looks far away." But ending that album
with
"Red River Shore"...man, that would have been
an even more poignant closer than "Sugar Baby."
Don't mean to ramble on about this song....but I like writing about
Dylan
a
lot more here than I do over on the Dylan ng.
I do love that song, though. That last verse about Jesus always
manages
to
send a chill down the spine (now that I think of it,
just about every verse of that song has that effect). I remember
when
I
was a young man wishing that I could write songs
as powerful as Bob's. After hearing a song such as "Red River
Shore,"
I
pray that I'm never able to write a song such as that.
Despite all the praying, though, I find that it's those world-weary
songs
from the last three albums (along with songs such as "Tell Ol' Bill"
and
"Cross the
Green Mountains" and such) that seem to resonate more in my as I hit
middle
age.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"i think the best thing about RED RIVER SHORE is the phrasin while
singin. its very odd and DIFFICULT to do, its a great song but i dont
see why it would be left offa TOOM , the only thin i cain think of is
that maybe the lyrics werent finished, that last verse is one part
that dont seem finished. the upbeat MARCHIN to the CITY should also
been on there. what is interestin is how many of the outtakes have a
more LANOIS type of sound, while the finished thing didnt. that seemed
to be an anti LANOIS album."
===========================================
I've noticed that also on the TELL TALE SIGN tracks...Lanois's sound
doesn't
dominate those tracks that he's said to have produced. I've heard more
than
a few speculate
what you mention, that this was almost Dylan's way of letting Lanois
know
just how much
(or how little) he was actually needed. If memory serves, back when
news
first came out
about TIME OUT OF MIND, I remember hearing that "Red River Shore" was
called
"Girl from the Red River Shore" and it was supposed to be something
like
a
20 minute opus.
I'm guessing, though, that folks were probably confusing it with
"Highands"
(which is long, but
nowhere close to 20 mintues).- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
"nobody knew the title to the songs back in the day, they knew there
was ONE LONG SONG , but i dont think they got titles unitl later on.
as far as the LANOIS thing the first thing BOB did was get rid of his
drum sound. i dont know which one of the LANOIS assistants was the one
with the ENGLISH ACCENT but they are all aggravatin, with theories and
the such. BOB on of the greats dont need THEORIES from some
whipernsapper. it came a point early on where BOB said no go and
called in his people, he didnt want OH MERCY pt 2.
it wasnt a very happy go lucky session."
===============================================
Would that be the album that wound up being UNDER THE RED SKY? I'm
getting
mixed up...because
I could have sworn that in CHRONICLES that Lanois made some sort of
disparaging remark about Don Was
during the OH MERCY sessions. Then again, with all the disparaging
remarks
getting made about different
people, it's easy to lose track....
I see that there a couple of songs from that album..."G-d Knows" and
"Born
in Time" that were produced
by Lanois. Dylan must have gotten some pressure to rejoin with Lanois
for
TIME OUT OF MIND.
It doesn't sound as though things were all that much better, since I've
heard that they bickered
over songs such as "Not Dark Yet." Can't say that everything that Lanois
touches winds up being a golden egg.
The full-band version of "Dignity" on TELL TALE SIGNS pretty much sheds
a
light on Dylan's telling of how
the life got sucked out of that song when making OH MERCY (although I've
heard some fine outtakes from those
sessions of this song...this version isn't one of the better ones). And,
really, except for the sparse version of "Mississippi"
that begins the new collection, I can't say that I favor any of the
outtakes
over the LOVE AND THEFT version.
I have to wonder how he'd have fared with Brian Eno...and Eno's
instructional cards for studio sessions ("Play As Though
You're In a Cocktail Lounge" - "Everyone Switch to the Instrument that
You
Know Nothing About" and such).
"i beleive it was WAS who dissed LANOIS around the time TOOM came out.
WAS let BOB have his way and
LANOIS thought he was doin a BOB/LANOIS DUET album which probably
rubbed BOB the wrong way. UNDER THE RED SKY which is one of my
favorite BOB records sold no copies so im sure BOB got the push after
the acoustic records that also sold nothin to get back to LANOIS!! but
the concept of OH MERCY 2 was a no go for BOB. and he called in all
these players despite the fact that LANIOS was producin. LANOIS would
never have made a record that sounds like LOVE and THEFT or MODERN
TIMES, if thats good or not i dont know. those records have a DEAN
MARTIN vibe that i dont know LANOIS could live with."
=============================================
When you say a Dean Martin vibe are you talking about those crooner-type
songs such as
"Moonlight" - "Bye and Bye" - "Floater" -"Spirit on the Water" - "Beyond
the
Horizon" and such?
Though that style of songs on MODERN TIMES has some fine lines and lyrics
in
them, I found
that the style began to wear a bit thin by the time that album came out.
On
LOVE AND THEFT,
I thought it was something of a move of genius to have a few songs of that
style on the album.
By the time those same songs appeared on MODERN TIMES, it felt a bit more
like a formula.
Still, I've no beef with either of the albums that Dylan's produced. If
you take the best from TIME OUT
OF MIND, you'd wind up with an album in line with his best (wiping away a
lot of those blues-based
songs that begin to sound the same no matter how many times I play it).
The last two L&T and MT,
they're able to hold my interest in one sitting. I start to get restless
while playing the TOOM album.
What's interesting is how Dylan refers to the music that he and Lanois
were
making as "archaic" (or some
word to that effect)...saying that it was the rappers who really were the
ones that folk to whom folks should
be paying attention...yet a good part of his resurgence is built around
those old-timey sounding songs.
I do have a soft spot for those songs on LOVE AND THEFT, though....fits
nicely with the wide range of
styles on that album. There's plenty I love on MODERN TIMES...when it's at
its best, it glistens.
I still don't see the "trilogy" in those albums from TOOM to MODERN TIMES
that so many have written about.
Those last two albums are in a league of their own. And, no, I don't think
that Lanois would have
been that wild about good chunks of the material on both of those albums,
although I've to confess that
I'd like to hear how his production would have sounded on a song such as
"Ain't Talkin'"...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
|
"BOB gonna make records that he likes BASED on the RECORDS he likes and
despite all the BS about rap and beck everythin turns out soundin
nothin remotely like it. thats your typical BOB bs to mess with your
mind. yes BECK and ICE CUBE and the thin sounds like BING CROSBY or
CHARLEY PATTON time and time again. hes in a place he can do whatever
he wants and he gonna make an album that sounds
like the ARTIC MONKEYS just aint gonna happen. i like MODERN TIMES
more now that when it came out, my problem is that hes got some
really borin players with him now."
=============================
Yeah, I agree...he could stand to shake it up in the studio a bit when it
comes
to those who play on an album. And I think you pretty well nailed why I
like
LOVE AND THEFT better than MODERN TIMES. After a while, MODERN TIMES
starts to have a pedestrian sound to it. I just hope he continues to make
studio albums, because
there's no way I'm going to go see him anymore (and his voice does still
sound decent enough
on the studio releases). |
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Willy Eyenine
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Incoming................ |
|
|
"musicaner" <musicaner@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:99f00418-21ae-4732-b369-addc22deff85@j68g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Yeah, I agree...he could stand to shake it up in the studio a bit when it
comes
to those who play on an album. And I think you pretty well nailed why I
like
LOVE AND THEFT better than MODERN TIMES. After a while, MODERN TIMES
starts to have a pedestrian sound to it. I just hope he continues to make
studio albums, because
there's no way I'm going to go see him anymore (and his voice does still
sound decent enough
on the studio releases).
|
"yes STUDIO albums on account live its unlistenable. MT is not his best
but its still listenable, the blues numbers have grown on me, the one
that seems a bit fake is WHEN THE DEAL GOES DOWN but the rest i like
just fine. no problem with arrang but he got like 4 guitar players on
it yet it sound like theres none.
maybe SEN CRANKY would get the notion that takin the ADVICE of FOX
NEWS and callin SOCIAL SECURITY "SOCIALISM" is not
the best thing to go with in gettin elected. maybe he should know its
mostly crazy people listen to that FOX news. every CRAZY MFer wanderin
the land seems to land there, they put a suit on him and roll him"
====================================================
Those who live in that FOX bubble might be in for a rude awakening on
Wednesday the 5th.
onstage (Guy Fawkes Day!). With all the scientific polling with little
margin for error, none of the
pollsters took into account that a lot of folks only have cell-phones....and
they haven't tapped into
the way they're planning on voting. What's worrisome are the reports
coming from Virginia about people
who are voting early and voting for Senator Obama...but the machine is
reporting that they voted
for McCain. The machine people say they're just pressing the button too
hard.... |
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SMBalloon
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Incoming................ |
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On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:54:13 -0700 (PDT), musicaner
<musicaner@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | yes STUDIO albums on account live its unlistenable. MT is not his best
but its still listenable, the blues numbers have grown on me,
|
At the time "Modern Times" was released in 2006, didn't you say that
it was even better than "Love & Theft"? Sounds as if you've soured on
it a bit. |
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musicaner
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Incoming................ |
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On Oct 22, 9:23 pm, SMBalloon <smball...@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 07:54:13 -0700 (PDT), musicaner
musica...@hotmail.com> wrote:
yes STUDIO albums on account live its unlistenable. MT is not his best
but its still listenable, the blues numbers have grown on me,
At the time "Modern Times" was released in 2006, didn't you say that
it was even better than "Love & Theft"? Sounds as if you've soured on
it a bit.
|
maybe i dont recall, i THINK i said that it was great but i PREFERRED
LOVE and THEFT, as i think LT is one of BOB best records and a
FAVORITE along with UNDER THE RED SKY and STREET LEGAL(remaster).
after awhile i kinda tired of MT due to the BORIN playin on it by a
listless band. and the blues things kinda been done before, although
somethin like SOMEDAY BABY aka TROUBLE NO MORE, was meant to SOUND
like MUDDY WATERS on purpose as the outtake on TELL TALE is much
superior. and the southern belle language gets on the never after a
while, specially WHEN THE DEAL GOES DOWN, which to me is the worst
song on there.
bob wants TO make records based on the old records thats his thing
fine but mabye a couple of new old records would be a good notion. |
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