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 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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Great performance of Punkte by the Gurzenich Orchestra from Cologne,
conducted by Markus Stenz. Now Gruppen and Carré make a lot more sense
to me. You can listen to it online at the BBC website for the next
week.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00d0wgq
Ben |
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leroy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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thx - listened only once so far, but loved it - reminded me of
Gruppen, actually -jimj |
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Jerry Kohl
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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On Aug 24, 6:35 pm, leroy <JWesleyJohn...@cs.com> wrote:
| Quote: | thx - listened only once so far, but loved it - reminded me of
Gruppen, actually -jimj
|
I'd be interested to know what about Punkte reminds you of Gruppen. To
me, they are extremely different sound worlds--one sharply articulated
into sections, the other continually in flux.
--
Jerry Kohl
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal." |
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leroy
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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| Quote: | I'd be interested to know what about Punkte reminds you of Gruppen. To
me, they are extremely different sound worlds--one sharply articulated
into sections, the other continually in flux.
|
Sorry, Jerry. Can't give you much explanation. I've heard Punkte
once, through bad headphones listening to that radio,with
interruptions. Have only heard Gruppen a little less than 100 times.
Gruppen is obviously a much more complex sound world, but yup, the two
do remind me of each other. -jimj |
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Cleanhead
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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| They remind me of each other too. It's just the sound. |
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Jerry Kohl
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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On Aug 26, 11:50 pm, Cleanhead <cleank...@googlemail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | They remind me of each other too. It's just the sound.
|
What, do you mean one orchestral piece sounds like any other, or is
there more to it than that? "Just the sound" is rather vague—can you
be more specific?
I personally find the sound of Punkte closer to Carré than to Gruppen.
For example, there are a lot of rapidly repeated notes in Punkte,
scalewise rushing lines and other "directed" figures, which are rare
or entirely absent from Gruppen. The scoring has some similarities, it
is true, but also some striking differences. The pair of English
horns, for example, which are very prominent towards the end of
Punkte. Gruppen has the recurring, distinctive combination of harp and
marimba, not to mention extended solos for electric guitar, piano, E-
flat clarinet, and violin. I don't hear anything like this in Punkte.
--
Jerry Kohl |
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Cleanhead
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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| Quote: | What, do you mean one orchestral piece sounds like any other, or is
there more to it than that? "Just the sound" is rather vague—can you
be more specific?
|
Jerry, I'm not a trained musician or musicologist, music for me is
just an impassioned hobby. To clarify, I simply wrote that PUNKTE
"reminds" me of GRUPPEN, not that it sounds like GRUPPEN in the
detailed manner that you have described it. What in GRUPPEN
particularly reminds me of PUNKTE is the opening, what I call,
arpeggio, which I also hear in PUNKTE. I don't have scores, so I'm
glad to read where you write that they do have some similarities. It's
those similarities, Jerry, that causes the one to remind me of the
other.
You might be interested to learn that after the performance of HOCH-
ZEITEN in Cologne, I had the opportunity to speak with Stockhausen and
told him that HOCH-ZEITEN reminded me of MIKROPHONIE II exponentiated
to the power of five. Stockhausen paused for a moment and passionately
cried out, "Yes, yes! I hadn't considered that.You discerned that very
well." He then went on to explain that "both compositions look back
into the past and anticipate the future."
Otherwise, although I'm new to this news group, I've been following it
for some time, and have the greatest respect for your detailed
analyses of Stockhausen's music. I can understand your comment and
where your coming from from your vantage point. However, with me it's
just a gut feeling.
I hope this somewhat answers your question, even if it's probably not
the response you were anticipating. |
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Jerry Kohl
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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On Aug 28, 12:16 am, Cleanhead <cleank...@googlemail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | What, do you mean one orchestral piece sounds like any other, or is
there more to it than that? "Just the sound" is rather vague—can you
be more specific?
Jerry, I'm not a trained musician or musicologist, music for me is
just an impassioned hobby.
|
Please, don't imagine that training makes any difference in a case
such as this. What matters is that you *hear* things. Stockhausen
often expressed his exasperation with musicologists who knew only what
they could read on paper, and would make the most preposterous
statements contrary to what was obvious to anyone actually listening
to the music.
| Quote: | To clarify, I simply wrote that PUNKTE
"reminds" me of GRUPPEN, not that it sounds like GRUPPEN in the
detailed manner that you have described it. What in GRUPPEN
particularly reminds me of PUNKTE is the opening, what I call,
arpeggio, which I also hear in PUNKTE.
|
Aha! I will listen to Punkte again and see if I find that opening
sound from Gruppen in it.
| Quote: | I don't have scores, so I'm
glad to read where you write that they do have some similarities.
|
I own a copy of the score of Gruppen, but not of Punkte. FWIW, that
opening sound in Gruppen is a strong percussive attack in the African
slit drums and a half-octave cluster in the celesta, with the strings
softly continuing the cluster. I would not have called that an
arpeggio, except by accident in some really sloppy performances.
| Quote: | It's those similarities, Jerry, that causes the one to remind me
of the other.
|
Sure. I deliberately avoided being specific because I wanted to learn
what in Punkte reminded you (and perhaps others, such as "leroy") of
Gruppen, and not to ask leading questions, such as "does the
percussion and brass writing seem similar to you?" These two pieces
have always seemed worlds apart to me--almost opposites--though I have
to admit that I am not as well-acquainted with Punkte as I am with
Gruppen.
| Quote: | You might be interested to learn that after the performance of HOCH-
ZEITEN in Cologne, I had the opportunity to speak with Stockhausen and
told him that HOCH-ZEITEN reminded me of MIKROPHONIE II exponentiated
to the power of five. Stockhausen paused for a moment and passionately
cried out, "Yes, yes! I hadn't considered that.You discerned that very
well." He then went on to explain that "both compositions look back
into the past and anticipate the future."
|
How curious (and, yes, very interesting). I wonder exactly what he
meant by that. Of course, the quotation of his own earlier
compositions in both cases "look back", though in Hoch-Zeiten I
believe the only quotations are from other parts of Licht. Considering
the circular conception of the Licht cycle, such quotations may be
understood as anticipating the future just as much as recalling the
past. But how does Mikrophonie II anticipate the future, and did
Stockhausen perhaps mean something different for Hoch-Zeiten, such as
anticipating something in Klang? I suppose we shall never know. But
was it this Janus-like character that you meant about your own
perception, or was there something in the character of the sounds that
seemed similar?
| Quote: | Otherwise, although I'm new to this news group, I've been following it
for some time, and have the greatest respect for your detailed
analyses of Stockhausen's music.
|
Thank you.
| Quote: | I can understand your comment and
where your coming from from your vantage point. However, with me it's
just a gut feeling.
|
That's where responses have got to start. I was simply taking the next
step of trying to articulate something more specific about what might
have produced my instinctive response.
| Quote: | I hope this somewhat answers your question, even if it's probably not
the response you were anticipating.
|
I was trying not to anticipate anything, but yes, it does answer my
question somewhat.
--
Jerry Kohl
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal." |
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Cleanhead
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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Thank you so much, Jerry for your kind words. I appreciate them very
much and enjoyed reading your very thoughtful response. I just have a
few minutes which I'd like to use to respond to a couple of your
questions regarding my brief conversation with Stockhausen folowing
the HOCH-ZEITEN performance in Cologne in 2003.
| Quote: | How curious (and, yes, very interesting). I wonder exactly what he
meant by that. Of course, the quotation of his own earlier
compositions in both cases "look back", though in Hoch-Zeiten I
believe the only quotations are from other parts of Licht. Considering
the circular conception of the Licht cycle, such quotations may be
understood as anticipating the future just as much as recalling the
past. But how does Mikrophonie II anticipate the future, and did
Stockhausen perhaps mean something different for Hoch-Zeiten, such as
anticipating something in Klang? I suppose we shall never know. But
was it this Janus-like character that you meant about your own
perception, or was there something in the character of the sounds that
seemed similar?
|
While listening to the second half of the performance, HOCH-ZEITEN for
Choir, the thought arose in my mind that it had some similarities with
MIKROPHONIE II, one of my favorite compositions. When both
compositions are performed, the singers sit in a half circle and in
both cases orchestral music (in the case of MIKROPHONIE II, taped
music) is piped in at certain times during the performance from
loudspeakers hanging directly above the stage. That's more or less
what I meant when I say they appeared similar to me. In this case, it
was not the sound.
When Stockhausen started explaining to me that both works look back
into the past and then into the future, I openly admit that I didn't
haven't a clue as to what he was talking about. With all due respect,
I interrupted him and said, "Professor, what I mean is the way the
orchestra fades in in both compositions..."
He didn't give me a chance to complete my thought and passionately
cried out, "Yes, that's what I mean by saying this!" ("Ja, das meine
ich damit!")
So I took it that, at least in the case of MIKROPHONIE II's looking
back to the past, he meant that the piped in music was looking back at
his earlier works, GESANG DER JÜNGLINGE, CARRE and MOMENTE. What he
meant by the future, I don't know and I still have no idea of how all
this applies to HOCH-ZEITEN.
Maybe this additional information might help you to solve the riddle. |
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Jerry Kohl
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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On Aug 28, 1:30 pm, Cleanhead <cleank...@googlemail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I'd like to use to respond to a couple of your
questions regarding my brief conversation with Stockhausen folowing
the HOCH-ZEITEN performance in Cologne in 2003.
How curious (and, yes, very interesting). I wonder exactly what he
meant by that. Of course, the quotation of his own earlier
compositions in both cases "look back", though in Hoch-Zeiten I
believe the only quotations are from other parts of Licht. Considering
the circular conception of the Licht cycle, such quotations may be
understood as anticipating the future just as much as recalling the
past. But how does Mikrophonie II anticipate the future, and did
Stockhausen perhaps mean something different for Hoch-Zeiten, such as
anticipating something in Klang? I suppose we shall never know. But
was it this Janus-like character that you meant about your own
perception, or was there something in the character of the sounds that
seemed similar?
While listening to the second half of the performance, HOCH-ZEITEN for
Choir, the thought arose in my mind that it had some similarities with
MIKROPHONIE II, one of my favorite compositions. When both
compositions are performed, the singers sit in a half circle and in
both cases orchestral music (in the case of MIKROPHONIE II, taped
music) is piped in at certain times during the performance from
loudspeakers hanging directly above the stage. That's more or less
what I meant when I say they appeared similar to me. In this case, it
was not the sound.
|
I think this could plausibly be described as being about "the sound"
of the two pieces. Not the timbre or the harmony, but perhaps someting
about the texture. Rather different than Stockhausen's view, which
seems to be more to do with the symbolic content.
| Quote: | When Stockhausen started explaining to me that both works look back
into the past and then into the future, I openly admit that I didn't
haven't a clue as to what he was talking about. With all due respect,
I interrupted him and said, "Professor, what I mean is the way the
orchestra fades in in both compositions..."
He didn't give me a chance to complete my thought and passionately
cried out, "Yes, that's what I mean by saying this!" ("Ja, das meine
ich damit!")
So I took it that, at least in the case of MIKROPHONIE II's looking
back to the past, he meant that the piped in music was looking back at
his earlier works, GESANG DER JÜNGLINGE, CARRE and MOMENTE. What he
meant by the future, I don't know and I still have no idea of how all
this applies to HOCH-ZEITEN.
Maybe this additional information might help you to solve the riddle.
|
Perhaps, though at the moment I, too, still cannot imagine what he
could have meant by "the future". Certainly the piped-in music is of a
different nature in Hoch-Zeiten--not "of the past" but "of the present
but in a different place". Thank you for amplifying on this incident.
--
Jerry Kohl
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal." |
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Cleanhead
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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Jerry, I assume you're familiar with Professor Rudolf Frisius' book
"Stockhausen - Einführung in das Gesamtwerk/Gespräche." Every now and
then, I pull it out of my bookcase and reread a chapter or an
interview--the interviews, especialy, are so fascinating, as is the
case with any Stockhausen interview). Well, as fate or chance or God's
will, or whatever you want to call it, would have it, just this
morning, I opened the book at random and landed at the interview
Professor Frisius calls "MUSIK ALS PROZESS" conducted in Kürten on 25
August 1982, and was more than astonished to read the following on
page 217:
"LICHT ist eigentlich, wie mir scheint, eine ganz natürliche
Konsequenz: dass man nicht nur eigene Werke zitiert in 'musikalischen
Fenstern', durch die sie hereinklingen (wie schon in MIKROPHONIE II,
wo Teile aus dem GESANG DER JÜNGLINGE, aus den MOMENTEn, also aus der
Vergangenheit in die Gegenwart hineinklingen), sondern dass jederzeit
alle früher entdeckten Gestaltprozesse wieder auftauchen können."
For me, this would appear to strengthen your original assumption that
Stockhausen was indeed referring to his development as a composer,
reflecting on earlier works, and developing those works even further
as he looks toward his future as a composer. |
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Jerry Kohl
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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On Aug 30, 1:42 am, Cleanhead <cleank...@googlemail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Jerry, I assume you're familiar with Professor Rudolf Frisius' book
"Stockhausen - Einführung in das Gesamtwerk/Gespräche."
|
I am familiar with volume 1, at any rate, yes. Prof. Frisius tells me
that volume 2 will appear very soon, perhaps before the end of this
year, and there will also be a volume 3, which should not take
anywhere near as long to appear as the second volume has after the
first (twelve years!).
| Quote: | Every now and
then, I pull it out of my bookcase and reread a chapter or an
interview--the interviews, especialy, are so fascinating, as is the
case with any Stockhausen interview).
|
Yes, and the more recent of those interviews have not yet appeared in
Stockhausen's TEXTE.
| Quote: | Well, as fate or chance or God's
will, or whatever you want to call it, would have it, just this
morning, I opened the book at random and landed at the interview
Professor Frisius calls "MUSIK ALS PROZESS" conducted in Kürten on 25
August 1982, and was more than astonished to read the following on
page 217:
"LICHT ist eigentlich, wie mir scheint, eine ganz natürliche
Konsequenz: dass man nicht nur eigene Werke zitiert in 'musikalischen
Fenstern', durch die sie hereinklingen (wie schon in MIKROPHONIE II,
wo Teile aus dem GESANG DER JÜNGLINGE, aus den MOMENTEn, also aus der
Vergangenheit in die Gegenwart hineinklingen), sondern dass jederzeit
alle früher entdeckten Gestaltprozesse wieder auftauchen können."
For me, this would appear to strengthen your original assumption that
Stockhausen was indeed referring to his development as a composer,
reflecting on earlier works, and developing those works even further
as he looks toward his future as a composer.
|
Yes, this is indeed an apropos quotation, considering what we have
been talking about. I wonder what he meant, though, from the vantage
point of 1982 (when only Donnerstag had been completed, and the
composition of Samstag was in progress), about citing his own works
"in musical windows" in Licht.
There are of course the Tierkreis melodies that make a brief
appearance in Festival (act 3, scene 1 of Donnerstag), but have I
overlooked other examples up to now? Perhaps he was expecting to make
more "windows" of this kind in the then-yet-to-be-composed parts of
Licht, but, as far as I am aware, the only later examples, in Mittwoch
and Sonntag, refer to other parts of the Licht cycle (and so, as I
said, could be either "past" or "future" references, within the cycle--
as opposed to within the composer's development), unless the down-up
glissando in the trombone solo in Orchester-Finalisten really is meant
to recall Mixtur and Momente, rather than the Samstags-Gruss.
--
Jerry Kohl <jeromekohl@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal." |
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Cleanhead
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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A thought just arose in me.
When HOCH-ZEITEN is performed, it is performed in two concert halls.
One audience sits in the hall where HOCH-ZEITEN for Orchestra is
performed and another audience sits in the hall where HOCH-ZEITEN for
Choir is performed. At, I believe seven predetermined moments during
the performance, what the other group is playing is transmitted by
satellite into the other hall and vice versa. At the end of the
performance, during a long intermission, the two groups move to the
other concert hall and the performance is repeated. The listeners now
see the other group, so that the performance they watched prior to
intermission, is now that which is being transmitted to them via
satellite.
So, during the first half of the performance, the listeners are
watching music being performed that will reappear during the second
half of the concert, so to say, in the future. And during the second
half, they hear through the loudspeakers above the stage music they
watched being performed during the first half of the performance, in
the past. So, HOCH-ZEITEN indeed looks back into the past and into the
future. And this theory would also be in line with Stockhausen's
response, "Das meine ich damit!" when I mentioned that I was referring
to how the orchestra faded in.
The same is however a little more adventurous when applied to
MIKROPHONIE II. Here it would mean that GESANG DER JÜNGLINGE, CARRÉ
and MOMENTE look to their future use in MIKROPHONIE II every time they
are performed, which I would have difficulty accepting. |
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BernardP
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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On 30/8/08 21:29, in article
0fe7277c-0052-488b-833c-4bc04189fd03@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "Jerry
Kohl" <jeromekohl@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Aug 30, 1:42 am, Cleanhead <cleank...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Jerry, I assume you're familiar with Professor Rudolf Frisius' book
"Stockhausen - Einführung in das Gesamtwerk/Gespräche."
I am familiar with volume 1, at any rate, yes. Prof. Frisius tells me
that volume 2 will appear very soon, perhaps before the end of this
year, and there will also be a volume 3, which should not take
anywhere near as long to appear as the second volume has after the
first (twelve years!).
Every now and
then, I pull it out of my bookcase and reread a chapter or an
interview--the interviews, especialy, are so fascinating, as is the
case with any Stockhausen interview).
Yes, and the more recent of those interviews have not yet appeared in
Stockhausen's TEXTE.
Well, as fate or chance or God's
will, or whatever you want to call it, would have it, just this
morning, I opened the book at random and landed at the interview
Professor Frisius calls "MUSIK ALS PROZESS" conducted in Kürten on 25
August 1982, and was more than astonished to read the following on
page 217:
"LICHT ist eigentlich, wie mir scheint, eine ganz natürliche
Konsequenz: dass man nicht nur eigene Werke zitiert in 'musikalischen
Fenstern', durch die sie hereinklingen (wie schon in MIKROPHONIE II,
wo Teile aus dem GESANG DER JÜNGLINGE, aus den MOMENTEn, also aus der
Vergangenheit in die Gegenwart hineinklingen), sondern dass jederzeit
alle früher entdeckten Gestaltprozesse wieder auftauchen können."
For me, this would appear to strengthen your original assumption that
Stockhausen was indeed referring to his development as a composer,
reflecting on earlier works, and developing those works even further
as he looks toward his future as a composer.
Yes, this is indeed an apropos quotation, considering what we have
been talking about. I wonder what he meant, though, from the vantage
point of 1982 (when only Donnerstag had been completed, and the
composition of Samstag was in progress), about citing his own works
"in musical windows" in Licht.
There are of course the Tierkreis melodies that make a brief
appearance in Festival (act 3, scene 1 of Donnerstag), but have I
overlooked other examples up to now? Perhaps he was expecting to make
more "windows" of this kind in the then-yet-to-be-composed parts of
Licht, but, as far as I am aware, the only later examples, in Mittwoch
and Sonntag, refer to other parts of the Licht cycle (and so, as I
said, could be either "past" or "future" references, within the cycle--
as opposed to within the composer's development), unless the down-up
glissando in the trombone solo in Orchester-Finalisten really is meant
to recall Mixtur and Momente, rather than the Samstags-Gruss.
Jerry Kohl <jeromekohl@comcast.net
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
The Mantra Melody is played in Dienstag/Jahreslauf (Saxophone solo) |
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Jerry Kohl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Stockhausen's Punkte at the proms |
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On Aug 31, 12:44 am, BernardP <nospamqwerty...@hutmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On 30/8/08 21:29, in article
0fe7277c-0052-488b-833c-4bc04189f...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com, "Jerry
Kohl" <jeromek...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Aug 30, 1:42 am, Cleanhead <cleank...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Jerry, I assume you're familiar with Professor Rudolf Frisius' book
"Stockhausen - Einführung in das Gesamtwerk/Gespräche."
I am familiar with volume 1, at any rate, yes. Prof. Frisius tells me
that volume 2 will appear very soon, perhaps before the end of this
year, and there will also be a volume 3, which should not take
anywhere near as long to appear as the second volume has after the
first (twelve years!).
Every now and
then, I pull it out of my bookcase and reread a chapter or an
interview--the interviews, especialy, are so fascinating, as is the
case with any Stockhausen interview).
Yes, and the more recent of those interviews have not yet appeared in
Stockhausen's TEXTE.
Well, as fate or chance or God's
will, or whatever you want to call it, would have it, just this
morning, I opened the book at random and landed at the interview
Professor Frisius calls "MUSIK ALS PROZESS" conducted in Kürten on 25
August 1982, and was more than astonished to read the following on
page 217:
"LICHT ist eigentlich, wie mir scheint, eine ganz natürliche
Konsequenz: dass man nicht nur eigene Werke zitiert in 'musikalischen
Fenstern', durch die sie hereinklingen (wie schon in MIKROPHONIE II,
wo Teile aus dem GESANG DER JÜNGLINGE, aus den MOMENTEn, also aus der
Vergangenheit in die Gegenwart hineinklingen), sondern dass jederzeit
alle früher entdeckten Gestaltprozesse wieder auftauchen können."
For me, this would appear to strengthen your original assumption that
Stockhausen was indeed referring to his development as a composer,
reflecting on earlier works, and developing those works even further
as he looks toward his future as a composer.
Yes, this is indeed an apropos quotation, considering what we have
been talking about. I wonder what he meant, though, from the vantage
point of 1982 (when only Donnerstag had been completed, and the
composition of Samstag was in progress), about citing his own works
"in musical windows" in Licht.
There are of course the Tierkreis melodies that make a brief
appearance in Festival (act 3, scene 1 of Donnerstag), but have I
overlooked other examples up to now? Perhaps he was expecting to make
more "windows" of this kind in the then-yet-to-be-composed parts of
Licht, but, as far as I am aware, the only later examples, in Mittwoch
and Sonntag, refer to other parts of the Licht cycle (and so, as I
said, could be either "past" or "future" references, within the cycle--
as opposed to within the composer's development), unless the down-up
glissando in the trombone solo in Orchester-Finalisten really is meant
to recall Mixtur and Momente, rather than the Samstags-Gruss.
Jerry Kohl <jeromek...@comcast.net
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
The Mantra Melody is played in Dienstag/Jahreslauf (Saxophone solo)
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I'd forgotten that, thank you, Bernard! Now that you have reminded me,
I believe the Inori and Harlekin formulas are also quoted in
Jahreslauf, in the immediate vicinity of the Mantra formula.
--
Jerry Kohl <jeromekohl@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal." |
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