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ManBearPig
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 Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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"gumboman" <dontemailme@gumbo.com> wrote in message >>Well, there is:
| Quote: |
The Texas Stories of Nelson Algren
It's a collection of short stories written while hopping freight trains.
I may have to check this one out. 
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Well, it's not the first book of his that I would reach for, but it ain't
bad.
Algren could capture the entire city of Chicago - with all of its millions
of people and millions of inner city lives - in one paragraph. He wrote
paragraphs that captured the city so perfectly that true natives had to put
the book down and go out for a smoke. I can't say he does that for Texas.
It wasn't in his bones like The Chi was.
But it ain't bad. The stories are pretty interesting, if ya like Depression
era, freight car, hobo, Pinkerton detective, mean sheriff, sweet hooker,
dirty jail, mulligan stew & stewbum stories.
Imagine "The New Timer" written by a guy who had actually been there & done
that.
===================================
"Gentlemen, you do understand, do you not, that
the horror is in just this... that there is no horror."
Kuprin |
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ManBearPig
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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"Evan Z" <no@mail.please> wrote:
| Quote: | Here's the Dillinger Four lyric:
Nelson Algren came to me and said,
Celebrate the ugly things'
The beat-up side of what they call pride
Could be the measure of these days."
Dasm.... that's a NICE lyric! Gotta check this band out.
Very nice!
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Yes, the worldplay is very good. I really like the rhyme.
Just for the record though, "celebrating the ugly" is not actually what
Nelson Algren was about. I know that a lot of people - even those who have
read him - think he was about that, but he wasn't.
He was horrified by the things that he wrote about. (Thus the dead on NY
Times assesment that, "his hell burns with a passion for heaven"). Still,
he had always considered himself a journalist as much as a novelist, and he
considered it his journalistic duty to report truthfully and accurately.
He felt the modern media was irresponsible, by reporting only society's
joys, while sweeping society's horrors under the rug, where no one could see
them. He considered it the writer's responsibility to report on both the
horrors and the joys of modern society, which he felt was headed into a
monster downward spiral due to our shift from being a producer's society to
being a consumer's society. (All this in the 1940's).
In the end, he asked the same courtesy that F Scott Fitzgerald had asked
after Gatsby; "do not identify me with the objects of my compassion." That
Algren's & Fitzgerald's critical experiences were so similar (yet their art
existed in such vastly different worlds) is kinda interesting.
| Quote: | This is just wordplay and cleverness. And then he says that "we mix our
own mythologies," which I guess is the point.
|
Wordplay. Cleverness. Verbal volleyball. Whatever....
| Quote: | I'd say this is no better or worse than Dylan naming Ezra Pound and T.S.
Eliot in "Desolation Row." (It's much better than Paul Simon naming Frost
and Dickinson in "Dangling Conversation.")
|
I'd have to actually hear the references, rather than just reading about
them. I know when I listen to Dylan and Simon make their references, I hear
good cheer and lots of humor. And I don't hear any attempt to be cool.
These guys just *are* cool. Not sure how this guy's shout-outs sound on
record, as I have not heard them.
| Quote: | I'd also say the song as a whole is pure early Springsteen, though it
sounds nothing like a Springsteen song. It *is* wordplay, you're right,
but it isn't just wordplay. It's inspired; it's the romance of the music
and the kids in the scene. And I'm ruining it just by talking about it!
|
Well, cigarettes for eyes makes no sense to me. Nor does it read well on
paper. But I'll take your word for it.
===================================
"Gentlemen, you do understand, do you not, that
the horror is in just this... that there is no horror."
Kuprin |
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Evan Z
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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ManBearPig wrote:
| Quote: | "Evan Z" <no@mail.please> wrote:
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[...]
| Quote: | In the end, he asked the same courtesy that F Scott Fitzgerald had asked
after Gatsby; "do not identify me with the objects of my compassion." That
Algren's & Fitzgerald's critical experiences were so similar (yet their art
existed in such vastly different worlds) is kinda interesting.
|
That is interesting! Was Algren a socialist?
I wonder if Springsteen would ask not to be identified with the objects
of his compassion--or if he's asking, implicitly, to be identified with
them. (If he were alive today, Fitzgerald might write about the social
circles that latter-day Springsteen runs in.)
[...]
| Quote: | I'd say this is no better or worse than Dylan naming Ezra Pound and T.S.
Eliot in "Desolation Row." (It's much better than Paul Simon naming Frost
and Dickinson in "Dangling Conversation.")
I'd have to actually hear the references, rather than just reading about
them. I know when I listen to Dylan and Simon make their references, I hear
good cheer and lots of humor. And I don't hear any attempt to be cool.
|
I think Dylan and Simon dropped literary names way back then exactly
because they wanted to be thought of as literary themselves--in Simon's
case, arguably because he wanted to be seen as Dylanesque. People were
talking about pretentiousness before (which I don't think is such a bad
thing); to me, this literary name-dropping is the epitome of
pretentiousness, and yeah, I do it myself all the time.
The literary reference in "You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go"
("Mine have been like Verlaine and Rimbaud") work better, IMO--because
it is funny.
And the mention of Erica Jong in "Highlands" is classic.
| Quote: | These guys just *are* cool. Not sure how this guy's shout-outs sound on
record, as I have not heard them.
|
Joyous, loud, raucous--it's that kind of song. But still, you're right.
It's about establishing credentials. Not that there's anything wrong
with that; it's just something that writers do.
-ez |
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gumboman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 11:38 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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On Fri, 25 May 2007 10:11:20 -0700, "ManBearPig"
<yakzoomash@boobatch.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "gumboman" <dontemailme@gumbo.com> wrote in message
I don't tend to put as much importance on it as some others. At the
end of the day it's just rock. All that stuff about the lyrics and
themes and all that crap - I always thought it was a bunch of BS. For
me, he had a bunch of good songs that I liked so it was pretty simple
in my mind.
So what are you saying? That Green Day's American Idiot does NOT capture
perfectly, the angst of an entire generation under Bush?
Sheesh!
I wasn't responding to you or saying anything about Green Day.
Relax, I was just having me some fun after my hyperbole on AI.
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My bad - I misunderstood.
| Quote: | It doesn't matter what anyone here thinks of AI anyway, the world has spoken
on that.
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Indeed it has.
| Quote: | I also tend to go by the "it's only rock & roll" theory, most of the time.
But every once in a while an album comes along that is more than the sum of
its parts. However it manages to do it, the record will tap into something
on the planet, some underlying current that's been running through a lot of
people worldwide, at that particular time. When that happens BAM!, a few
million people feel the need to rush out and buy the thing. They learn
every note, every nuance and lyric. They feel possessive about it. The
album makes an initial impact and then it continues to sell, sometimes for
decades.
American Idiot is one of those albums. So was Born To Run. So was Meet The
Beatles. So was the soundtrack to Saturday Night Fever. Neon Bible could
be one of those albums. In fact I think it will be.
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There will never be another 'Meet The Beatles'. When the wife and the
youngest went to Vegas they caught the Beatles show at the Mirage and
just raved about it. Right after that one of the radio stations down
here had a 50 year anniversary party. They were also the radio station
that brought the Beatles to Houston (a concert I attended by the way -
does that make me OLD) and they had a party down on the boardwalk with
a Beatles tribute band and a recording of the concert they had made at
the time (it was pretty raw). So I've been listening to a lot of
Beatles lately - some of it still sounds pretty good 40 years later.
| Quote: | I don't think that either of The Hold Steady's albums could become one of
these, but maybe they have one inside them? Time will tell. I know I would
have never guessed that Green Day had such a record inside of them.
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I haven't heard The Hold Steady yet.
JH |
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ManBearPig
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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"gumboman" <dontemailme@gumbo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | There will never be another 'Meet The Beatles'.
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There will never be another Beatles.
Which goes to the essense of my problem with these bands. People have been
writing about them like they walk on water. Of course, before these two
bands came along, people in Brucedom were all ga-ga over Marah. Before
Marah it was Jesse Malin. Before Jesse Malin it was Dan Bern. It's great
to discover new bands and musicians, but do we always gotta go so overboard?
Have you read some of the music critic's articles in the magazines about
Arcade Fire & The Hold Steady? They are off the charts. When you combine
some of these articles with some of the posts in Brucedom, well, you start
expecting to hear the greatest music of all time!
So far that ain't what I'm hear when I listen to these bands. I'm willing
to keep trying, however, it's a gorgeous day out here; so this afternoon on
my drive up to SF, I think I'll pop in Revolver followed by Abbey Road.
===================================
"Gentlemen, you do understand, do you not, that
the horror is in just this... that there is no horror."
Kuprin |
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William Innes
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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"ManBearPig" <yakzoomash@boobatch.com> wrote in message
news:K_GdnUFKFfKFocrbnZ2dnUVZ_t6qnZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: | There will never be another Beatles.
|
Amen to that. Man, for the past twenty-some years, I couldn't stand to
listen to an album of theirs or even one of their songs if it came on
the radio. Nothing to do with them...and all to do with me...I'd worn out
those vinyl albums so much as a kid that every note and beat of the drum was
etched in my brain. Nowadays, though, I find myself returning to their
music with a vengeance.
From the first album/singles to the final days....I find it unlikely that
we'll see or know the likes of them in our lifetime.
A big chunk of what turned me off to them was that I thought they were
completely void of emotion.
That came about from Springsteen's heartchurning recordings and live shows.
Then I realized we were talking apples to oranges.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade a 1970s Springsteen for anything...but
sometimes it's very cool
to just let the majesty of a song itself do the talking...and that's what
The Beatles did..
Nowadays I'm completely convinced that...along with the likes of
Michelangelo, Raphael, Mozart, Bach, along with a few others...they were
touched by the hand of God.
| Quote: |
Which goes to the essense of my problem with these bands. People have
been writing about them like they walk on water. Of course, before these
two bands came along, people in Brucedom were all ga-ga over Marah.
Before Marah it was Jesse Malin. Before Jesse Malin it was Dan Bern.
It's great to discover new bands and musicians, but do we always gotta go
so overboard?
No kidding. Remember that gal...forget her name...she did "Darkness on the |
Edge of Town" in her concerts?
Where is she now?
She was the next "real deal"....
She was good...but she wasn't Springsteen.
All of the bands/performers you listed are good.....but no Springsteen are
they.
But I've got a feeling folks'll keep trying to find a bit of him here and
there and in the oddest of places. |
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William Innes
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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"ManBearPig" <yakzoomash@boobatch.com> wrote in message
news:4OOdnVWHK5-TucrbnZ2dnUVZ_rqhnZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: | "Evan Z" <no@mail.please> wrote:
I'd say this is no better or worse than Dylan naming Ezra Pound and T.S.
Eliot in "Desolation Row." (It's much better than Paul Simon naming Frost
and Dickinson in "Dangling Conversation.")
I'd have to actually hear the references, rather than just reading about
them. I know when I listen to Dylan and Simon make their references, I
hear good cheer and lots of humor. And I don't hear any attempt to be
cool. These guys just *are* cool. Not sure how this guy's shout-outs
sound on record, as I have not heard them.
There be the difference. |
Dylan does it tongue in cheek with a mouthful of salt...and it works.
Paul Simon comes off as a tad bit precious when he does it (although I'll
confess that I
do think it's a pretty gorgeous song on Simon's part). |
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cwb
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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manbearpig:
| Quote: | Which goes to the essense of my problem with these bands. People have
been writing about them like they walk on water. Of course, before these
two bands came along, people in Brucedom were all ga-ga over Marah.
Before Marah it was Jesse Malin. Before Jesse Malin it was Dan Bern.
It's great to discover new bands and musicians, but do we always gotta go
so overboard?
|
marah was a great live band. these days? hit and miss.
jesse malin? excellent writer for my tastes, and very good live, but I
hope no one suggested he was "the next bruce springsteen."
dan bern? witty, but never cared much for him. couldn't get past the
voice.
the hold steady? made last year's best rock record for my money, and I
hear they're a lot of fun live.
all clearly indebted to springsteen's music (and live approach to some
degree), and yeah, all artists that some hardcore springsteen fans
seem to gravitate toward because of that debt perhaps. or maybe just
related exposure somehow.
but Arcade Fire are in another class, and don't really belong in this
bunch, though they do share the fact that they've been talked up some
on a bruce board I guess. (and indie blogs. etc. etc. etc.) that's
about where the similarities end-- other than the live intensity, and
belief in the power of music I suppose.
I think people are going "overboard" about them because their albums
are stirring and their live shows are even moreso.
billyi:
| Quote: | No kidding. Remember that gal...forget her name...she did "Darkness on the
Edge of Town" in her concerts?
Where is she now?
She was the next "real deal"....
|
mary cutrufello (sp?). personally always thought she was very
mediocre, and pretty painful. |
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Evan Z
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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cwb wrote:
| Quote: | manbearpig:
Which goes to the essense of my problem with these bands. People have
been writing about them like they walk on water. Of course, before these
two bands came along, people in Brucedom were all ga-ga over Marah.
Before Marah it was Jesse Malin. Before Jesse Malin it was Dan Bern.
It's great to discover new bands and musicians, but do we always gotta go
so overboard?
marah was a great live band. these days? hit and miss.
jesse malin? excellent writer for my tastes, and very good live, but I
hope no one suggested he was "the next bruce springsteen."
dan bern? witty, but never cared much for him. couldn't get past the
voice.
the hold steady? made last year's best rock record for my money, and I
hear they're a lot of fun live.
|
I've heard one Marah record and that was plenty, think Jesse Malin's
good and Dan Bern's very good in doses, and think the Hold Steady's a
great rock band. But I agree that they've gotten attention in RMAS
specifically because they're Bruce-influenced in the most obvious way
(not that there's anything...) and/or actual friends-with-Bruce.
And yeah, in answer to MBP's question, I think we do always have to go
overboard. At least, I think we all do it. Other people love Graham
Parker or Green Day or various bands I've never heard or never heard of.
For me, it's Sleater-Kinney (best band of the past 15 years, one of the
best ever), the Old 97's (great live band with a few excellent albums),
Amy Rigby (best songwriter in the world today, great singer too), and a
few others.
Everyone does it.
[...]
| Quote: | billyi:
No kidding. Remember that gal...forget her name...she did "Darkness on the
Edge of Town" in her concerts?
Where is she now?
She was the next "real deal"....
mary cutrufello (sp?). personally always thought she was very
mediocre, and pretty painful.
|
Never heard of her. Sounds like a good thing!
-ez |
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ManBearPig
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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"cwb" <querosuave.beck@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | marah was a great live band. these days? hit and miss.
jesse malin? excellent writer for my tastes, and very good live, but I
hope no one suggested he was "the next bruce springsteen."
dan bern? witty, but never cared much for him. couldn't get past the
voice.
the hold steady? made last year's best rock record for my money, and I
hear they're a lot of fun live.
all clearly indebted to springsteen's music (and live approach to some
degree), and yeah, all artists that some hardcore springsteen fans
seem to gravitate toward because of that debt perhaps. or maybe just
related exposure somehow.
but Arcade Fire are in another class, and don't really belong in this
bunch, though they do share the fact that they've been talked up some
on a bruce board I guess. (and indie blogs. etc. etc. etc.) that's
about where the similarities end-- other than the live intensity, and
belief in the power of music I suppose.
I think people are going "overboard" about them because their albums
are stirring and their live shows are even moreso.
|
I agree Arcade Fire does not belong in this bunch but for a slightly
different (or, additional) reason. The people I see raving about Arcade
Fire tend to be people who rave about a LOT of different music. They have
wide tastes. By contrast, with some of these other bands and musicians,
when reading people's musical posts, you sometimes get the feeling that ALL
they ever listen to is Bruce and/or Bruce related/influenced music. I
distinctly remember reading posts by people who seemed to ONLY write about
Bruce and Bruce proteges like Southside Johnny, John Eddy, John Cafferty,
Dan Berm, Marah, Jesse Malin, Joe Grushecky, etc. You got the feeling, if
it wasn't Bruce related they never heard it. I think that's a part of what
I recoil against, sometimes.
| Quote: | mary cutrufello (sp?).
|
Bingo! Great memory both you guys! (I'd completely forgotten her).
===================================
"Gentlemen, you do understand, do you not, that
the horror is in just this... that there is no horror."
Kuprin |
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ManBearPig
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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"Evan Z" <no@mail.please> wrote:
| Quote: | I've heard one Marah record and that was plenty, think Jesse Malin's good
and Dan Bern's very good in doses, and think the Hold Steady's a great
rock band. But I agree that they've gotten attention in RMAS specifically
because they're Bruce-influenced in the most obvious way (not that there's
anything...) and/or actual friends-with-Bruce.
And yeah, in answer to MBP's question, I think we do always have to go
overboard. At least, I think we all do it. Other people love Graham Parker
or Green Day or various bands I've never heard or never heard of. For me,
it's Sleater-Kinney (best band of the past 15 years, one of the best
ever), the Old 97's (great live band with a few excellent albums), Amy
Rigby (best songwriter in the world today, great singer too), and a few
others.
Everyone does it.
|
I think I just addressed some of my discomfort with this syndrome in my last
post. Of course, I go overboard more than anyone! But reading RMAS, you do
sometimes get the impression there are people who only listen to Bruce or
Bruce related music. So when one of these Bruce related bands starts
getting raves & accolades I just naturally fall the other way, often without
giving them a shot. It ain't pretty. It's MBP being MBP.
===================================
"Gentlemen, you do understand, do you not, that
the horror is in just this... that there is no horror."
Kuprin |
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William Innes
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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"ManBearPig" <yakzoomash@boobatch.com> wrote in message
news:64CdnWm10Kqo6cXbnZ2dnUVZ_hisnZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: | "cwb" <querosuave.beck@gmail.com> wrote:
mary cutrufello (sp?).
Bingo! Great memory both you guys! (I'd completely forgotten her).
Yep...she's the one (or the one who wasn't...although everyone thought it'd |
turn out differently...). |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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ON Sat, 26 May 2007 12:24:26 -0700, "William Innes"
<billyinnes@prodigy.net> WROTE:
| Quote: |
"ManBearPig" <yakzoomash@boobatch.com> wrote in message
news:64CdnWm10Kqo6cXbnZ2dnUVZ_hisnZ2d@comcast.com...
"cwb" <querosuave.beck@gmail.com> wrote:
mary cutrufello (sp?).
Bingo! Great memory both you guys! (I'd completely forgotten her).
Yep...she's the one (or the one who wasn't...although everyone thought it'd
turn out differently...).
|
I saw about a half dozen Mary Cutrufello shows when she opened for
Gregg Allman and Friends and I was on the road....I thought the first
show rocked, and I really enjoyed her take on Darkness. After that,
it was show after show, all the same. A week after the tour I
couldn't tell you anything about anything she played except that I
liked Darkness.
take care,
Paul |
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Will Dockery
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: Re: Mott the Hoople |
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"William Innes" wrote:
| Quote: | Will Dockery wrote:
"Evan Z" wrote
William Innes wrote:
I'll keep my open for Ian Hunter, by the way, though I hate to admit that
I think I only know *one* Mott the Hoople song. Any album
recommendations?
This may be a bit excessive, but last year a wonderful 3 CD of Mott/solo
Ian Hunter compilation called JOURNEY was released.
There is not a bum song on the album...and the liner notes by Hunter
(this is the compilation he hand selected) even add to one's appreciation of these songs.
As for Mott albums: MOTT would be the one to go with.
Yeah, I know everyone knows "All the Young Dudes"...but MOTT has "All the
Way from Memphis" and "I Wish I Was Your Mother" (which I swear is
one of the most heartbreaking songs ever...it's melodic and
majestic...but
Yes, I'd love to hear these again... I knew a guy who did a cover of
"I Wish I Was Your Mother" some time back, great song.
its attitude is what molded punk rock).
Yes, the Mott album was a world-changer on a personal level for me...
I'll never forget the first time I heard of them, I was a freshman in
high school, walking down a crowded hallway and I overheard some chick
say "He looks like Mott The Hoople!" ...heh.
Needless to say, I went out and bought the newly released Mott album,
which led to Lou Reed, Bowie, Roxy Music, et cetera. Before that I was
listening to the usual Dylan, Stones, solo Beatles.
Ah, youth...
Anyway, are any of these records even available on CD these days?
All of them...and try to get the UK versions. They've got bonus
track....and bonus tracks worth getting at that.
|
Good to know, although all I've found around here is "All The Young
Dudes", which ain't bad, and essential MTH ("Sucker", and of course
"ATYD" and "Sweet Jane"), but I'm hankering to have "Mott" and "Brain
Capers" on my player again, a couple of decades on...
| Quote: | Remastered, great extra tracks and they sound great.
I love Mott these days as much (if not more) than the days of "Dudes" and
"Memphis"...
|
I can agree they still stand up, not at all just nostalgia items.
| Quote: | I'd add Brain Capers to the essential Mott The Hoople, produced by Guy
Stevens, who later produced the Clash masterpiece London Calling,
which BC shares some similarity to imo.
Another great way to ease into Hunter's past work (both solo and with Mott)
is his STRINGS ATTACHED album...he did this one
with a six-piece rock band and an 18 player string ensemble. Usually I cringe at these sort of ventures...this one works, though..oh man does it work.
He did this in Norway...and was specifically invited to do
this...apparently
in Norway, Hunter is regarded as sharing some of the same compositional traits
of the "greats" in classical music (even though none of his stuff ever
ventures into the art-rock pomp of groups such as Yes, ELP, etc.).
Hmmm... maybe I'll have a look for this.
I think you'll dig it...
|
I look forward to it.
--
"...there are five native American art forms that we've given to the
world: Jazz, of course. Musical comedy as we know it today. The
detective story as crafted by Poe. The banjo. And comic books."
-Harlan Ellison
"Mirror Twins" by W. Dockery-B. Fowler:
http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars
"Hasty Pudding" by W. Dockery-H. Conley:
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery |
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William Innes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:04 am Post subject: Re: Don't Tell Graham Parker |
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<pkaytes@DELETECAPSAND THIS@SIGN.att.net> wrote in message
news:006j53lfl142jrg2m78sb2c6s3m8guot2h@4ax.com...
| Quote: | ON Sat, 26 May 2007 12:24:26 -0700, "William Innes"
billyinnes@prodigy.net> WROTE:
"ManBearPig" <yakzoomash@boobatch.com> wrote in message
news:64CdnWm10Kqo6cXbnZ2dnUVZ_hisnZ2d@comcast.com...
"cwb" <querosuave.beck@gmail.com> wrote:
mary cutrufello (sp?).
Bingo! Great memory both you guys! (I'd completely forgotten her).
Yep...she's the one (or the one who wasn't...although everyone thought
it'd
turn out differently...).
I saw about a half dozen Mary Cutrufello shows when she opened for
Gregg Allman and Friends and I was on the road....I thought the first
show rocked, and I really enjoyed her take on Darkness. After that,
it was show after show, all the same. A week after the tour I
couldn't tell you anything about anything she played except that I
liked Darkness.
That seems to be what most folk remember about her...she played "Darkness on |
the Edge of Town" during her live show.
And the funny thing is that most of us never saw one of her live show, but
that's what we remember about her...
Hat's off to you...at least you remember her name! |
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